Sorry to start a new thread (hopefully some folks read this rebuttle before it is deleted), but you ignored the sentiments of several people who posted on the “inside the mouth” topic, inserted your last word, and then froze the thread. That doesn’t seem fair or in the spirit of good debate and conversation. I won’t take much more of your time here, but I wanted to sign off with some clarification:

(1) This argument has been twisted. I’m not suggesting that outside or on the mouth should “count.” I know it’s not an officially caught fish. I think that “counting” is up to the fisherman. The whole bit here is that you stated, in a public forum, that a person was not a “true” roughfisher if he counted fish caught on the outside of the lip. As I outlined in previous posts, precisely where the hook embeds does not speak to the trueness of the fishing method or the fisherman. It does speak to an official result, but that’s about it. The irony here is that the original question – “should I count this buffalo” – would be answered NO by me, because it seems that the fish was blindly snagged. If the thread had stuck to the objective/official matter I wouldn’t have even replied. But when you stick in jabs and bits about “true fisherman”… well you’re goading people into replying/discussing/defending. Which in many cases is good – here though, it seems that certain opinions are squashed by way of freezing and/or kicking off of the board.

(2) On the kids topic: I’ve got two kids, and I’m trying to raise them to be thoughtful and ethical people. That encompasses being thoughtful and ethical fisherman. That means teaching them things like: (a) fish are not “provided as a resource” for us to “take” at will, but rather they are here, coexisting with us, (b) all fish are to be treated with respect - meaning all caught fish should be either consumed or released – none should be wantonly wasted or hung on walls as trophies, etc. etc. One thing I won’t tell my kids is that to be an ethical angler they can only count fish caught inside the mouth, and thus they should use whatever technique or approach necessary to maximize “inside the mouth” fish. That doesn’t sound ethical to me. It sounds technical. It’s part of another discussion regarding officialness.

I don’t believe you’re sorry to see anybody leave your board. It seems that anyone that leaves or is booted off is in disagreement with you, and thus you are probably happy to see them go. I wasn’t trying to be inflammatory; I was only arguing the other side of a debate. It was the “wrong” side though.

I’ll part then with no real problem with anybody on this board… I hope to meet more of you on the water. The board itself though has little utility, IMO, as it is basically focused on back-slapping and congrats for bait-fishing, underlying disdain for fly-fishing-only folks, and maintaining one-sidedness in debates/discussion. I’ll focus on CAG, Rochester Anglers Forum and a couple alternative sites that have been shared with me by fellow roughfish.com exiles.

Good fishing folks,

WB

Wow. I missed all of this.

Justin - Really?

Just my two cents as I am not going to bother reading the other thread, however, I am a NOBODY (my name on this board is fake and unless you have met me in person you wouldn't have a clue about me or my tendencies.) but I am seeking a master's degree in outdoor education and working on my thesis theme of human dimensions of angling.

With that I have found that everyone has their own way of doing things. The separations are cultural and there are many prejudices in the fishing world continuum. You can think of one on your own so I won't offer anyone suggestions as to what they may be.

Either way, I have fished with Justin and found him to be ethical and just in his rationale application of fishing mantra theory. I would consider it a loss to the community if anyone is booted from any board on the basis that they have a rationale that is different than yours.

I am not saying let snaggers proliferate, I am simply saying that it would be my first instinct that he has thought out what is being said however may have a struggle with writing it on a message board. It is very hard to determine exactly what one is considering emotionally as message boards leave out crucial pieces of interpersonal communication as all you get is text, you do not get any eyes or movements from the communication. All in all I am a supporter of communication from a diverse group of anglers.

I for one grew up knowing that my father was a salmon snagger. Hell, I have even made snagging hooks. In the 80s it was legal and considered ethical to snag salmon. Today's human dimension foster a different rationale that some may consider arbitrary however the trend of cultural norms leaves little room for acceptance. Neither of us consider a fish fair quarry if it is caught anywhere outside of the mouth these days.



Well put in saying that a fish is a fish caught that is brought to hand by hook and line methods, however, intentionally fin hooking is unethical. There are oddities where I will catch a fish in the belly or fin on a dry fly and it counts as a fish caught but not one that I can legally keep for harvest.

Either way every one has their own dimension of angling that comes with their experiences of the activity and when that is brought to the table we should all take a bite and consider the taste. if it is distasteful we can remain polite. Maybe try the golden rule (from mother natures Sun god) that if you have nothing nice to say then remain silent or go Hollywood and remain positive in challenging situations.

It is not my choice to make as to who is allowed to be on this board. I for one have been challenge with the ability to post here for years at a time. I am still here. Time heals all wounds. I respect being allowed to use this board as it is a priveleage and I respect and appreciate all discussion that occur here. Shit, I come here multiple times a day seeking refuge from the flourescent lights of my bull pen office.

If we are truly stewards of anything then communication lines will remain open and differences will be allowed satisfactorily in a proactive approach to fostering a community which is strong, ethical, rational, and effective.

Bite me a new asshole if you wish however I encourage you to consider differences and culminate those toward a broader goal of improvement.

Either way, snagging as well as trout beads are not ethical. it is going to effect your personal fishing mantra as mother nature controls that too. With no mantra you got no fish and your torch goes out leaving you in the dark on an unknown path. But we all know things have a funny way of always working out if we just deal with our issues and remind ourselves that the world is not going to end because of it and there will prolly still be fish in the water somewhere regardless of anything that is within our control.

In order to have good fishing mantra you need to be a good person, that does good things, and respects and promotes ethical existences with our environment which provides us life.

Any way you look at it the sun is still shining!

Well, my opinion has always been:

1) Fish not hooked in the mouth are snagged fish.
2) Snagging fish is not angling.

If you disagree with that, fine. You think about things differently. I respect people who spear fish, net fish, and snag fish. I don't think it's angling, but Wendy is correct in that it's still a form of outdoor experience.

If you flyfish because you think it's more of a "challenge", then why not challenge yourself to actually hook the fish in the mouth? It isn't that hard, man. If you're having so much trouble getting the fish hooked in the mouth, then admit it and ask how to improve your technique, maybe somebody can help you!

ESub - Good points; I know you and I went through this same discussion in the past. I'm happy to report that I've learned a lot since then, and this time I behaved better than I did years ago.

By the way, I have never kicked anyone off this board for their opinion, I have only kicked people off for posting pictures of mutilated, naked people with a pole up their butt - and for posting excessive profanity. Nobody has earned the punishment of being banned in this discussion.

I locked the thread because it was drifting off-topic. Bob's question was answered and the long list of argumentative posts, while constructive in addressing the snagging debate, was not contributing additionally to his answer. Everyone is free to keep arguing about it endlessly in this or another thread.

Good day to all, best of luck in finding whatever you seek.

Not that I'm taking any sides here at all, but what I think Corey is mostly trying to say here is that this is an angling site. And he has always stressed "fair chase methods". To me, fair chase is fooling a fish into taking your bait, no matter what that bait may be, fly or natural.

Really to each is own here, if you can live with yourself posting a fish claiming to be fair hooked, I hope you sleep well at night. I fish way too much, and am very addicted to species fishing. I have chose to build a lifelist based on fairly caught fish species, and that is "my choice". Anyone else could have different guidelines to their lifelist or catches, I really dont care. If I ever post a foul hooked fish on my lifelist, I would label it foul hooked or snagged, just so everyone who saw the pic would know. I have worked very hard for my catches, and have logged many hours of skunkings. But theres one thing thats for sure, I would not have it any other way. Thats why they call it a lifelist, you got your whole life to fill it. Species fishing is awesome, and I thank everyone on this website for their contributions, you have all made me a better fisherman!

Just my 2 cents.....Doc

Wendy, I will be sorry to see you leave this site. I liked what you had to share and will have to catch it some where else.
I don't agree with all the opinions on this sight either. But Corey and company run the best site I visit. I like this site because it is status free. I don't have to have a certian rod, lure, or boat to fit in. What is shared here is the true angling enjoyment that goes beyond life lists, big fish, and the latest teqnique.

I have brought in a few fish that have ended up being "snagged" and even though it was a bummer that I didn't "catch" it....it was still pretty exciting while I was bringing it in.

As small as it is.......when I look at my little species list I know that I caught them all by angling for them.

That is all I can say. I don't have a problem with people utilizing other methods of going after fish when allowable by the regs.........

Roughfishers are a unique population, a small segment of a large group of fishermen. Three times today I took the chance to spread the gospel. And why did I tell people about roughfishing? Why did I recommend this site? Why did I take two people sucker fishing today? Because we are a community that is dependent on itself. You can't learn how to catch redhorse from Ted Takasaki.

I don't know what exactly what we (including myself) were trying to prove in the last thread, but I do know this: I am always trying to bring roughfishers together. What happened there was roughfishers being divided. And divided roughfishers makes me sad.

(Yeah, that sounded really really corny, and if it didn't sound corny, try reading it out loud in slow melodramatic soap opera voice. I dare ya.)

Very, very, very well said. I have read the last 2 posts and will take them both and use them. I have now been given a better respect & perspective.

Thank you...

I don't really feel qualified to comment on either thread. I'm just another "pathetic" fly fisherman out to snag suckers and carp in the mouth.

Good fishing everyone.

I agree with angling versus snagging. Dr. Flathead brought up a lot of good points. I've only snagged one species of fish, Carp and since I don't have a picture of the fairly hooked Carp I've caught in the past, I chose to include that until another date. Though, I'm not even an rookie Carp angler as this point so I really don't care yet.

All other fish on my lifelist I've tried to figure out in my local waters or the waters North of me. Some species are so frustrating and *part* of the time, it's even a complete lost cause to angle for them at all even when you can see them!

The 2 fish that have taken me the longest to figure out are Lake Sturgeon and Flathead Catfish. Jess asked me the other day, "So your most favorite fish to fish for and to try and figure out are 2 of the most rare fish that are well known?" I said yep. They're there, but nailing half a dozen 10+ lbers in one day 5 miles from your house ain't gonna happen.

When you have a good day, it's well worth it though.